Interviews From the Daoist World: Li Xingde
Interviewing Daoist Renunciate Xing De
Hello & welcome to this week’s edition of the Nüwa Newsletter — every fourth week you’ll find a long-form article covering a specific topic.
What follows is an account of the life of Daoist renunciate Xing De (known as ‘Li Shifu’ to his students) prior to the year 2000. It covers his childhood, life in society, his decision to renounce and the first years of his training. The information was gathered from an interview which took place one night whilst I was staying at the temple that he looks after on White Horse Mountain. We spoke late into the night and the interview was informal. Sometimes Li Shifu lay down and closed his eyes, sometimes he burst out laughing and stood up.
Li Shifu was born in 1964 in Henan. The fifth of seven children, life was hard, food was scarce, and the clothes he wore were patchwork and passed down to him from older siblings. He was close to his siblings as a child. However, “after I left home to become a renunciate, I did not see them for ten years. They didn’t know where I was, nor did anyone else. Everyone thought I was dead.”By his admission, his parents were simple, strict and kind people. They never pressured him to become anything. They were happy as long as he was happy, healthy, and didn’t cause too much trouble. When recalling his childhood, Li Shifu laughs, and smiles, and his face is full of warmth. He says that his early years were the happiest of both his and his siblings’ lives. Before he started school around the age of 7, he played in the streets, by the fish ponds, and play-fought with his siblings. He mentioned that “children nowadays do not know the kind of happiness we experienced then. They spent most time in kindergarten when they are two or three, with much less the connection with nature.”
Li Shifu left school at the age of 17 and joined a local sports team. Because he had practiced martial arts since he was a child, he received a special request to join. He has many stories from this time and told me one he finds amusing. All applicants have to pass a health examination. Surprisingly, at first Li Shifu failed because the doctor thought his gait was wrong; it seemed like he was walking on springs. Li Shifu explained, “that was because when I was a kid, I practiced qing gong. When I walked, my body felt so light that it naturally moved in somewhat unusual way.” The examiner was suspicious of qing gong, and said that he had only ever come across it in martial arts novels. Li Shifu then demonstrated it to the health officer by jumping over a clothesline that was at least 2 meters in height.
Qing gong is the art of making one’s body very light. Li Shifu described it using a number of phrases: body as light as a swallow; in eight steps one catches up with a cicada in mid-air; launching like a scallion pulled out of dry ground; flying on eaves, walking on walls; stepping on duckweed to cross water; treading on snow without leaving a trace. Li Shifu mentioned that there are two kinds of qing gong. One is cultivated through external practice, and is extremely painstaking. It requires seven to ten years of practice, and injuries to bones and tendons must be avoided at all costs. Of those who begin the training, the majority fail to complete it because they sustain injuries. This external training is accompanied with traditional Chinese medicine formulas to strengthen the bones and tendons, known as ‘flying pills’. The other method of training qing gong is internal. Although it shares a common foundation with external practice, it also includes intensive meditation practice to activate the microcosmic orbit (the basic level of internal alchemy). When that has been achieved, it is possible to stay in the air much longer.
Li Shifu says he began practicing martial arts in order to protect himself. However, when he was a little older, he dreamt about becoming a great martial arts master and travelled around China, to famous mountains and great rivers, seeking out teachers. Word would spread of a master who had a high level of skill (gong), and people would travel to challenge or study with him. Li Shifu spent long hours with numerous masters from a variety of styles, often in dilapidated fields and deep into the night.
Q: How did you find the time to practice gongfu?
A: Whilst at school, I would practice all the time except whilst taking courses, eating or sleeping. When working, I found time in between work to practice. During the holidays, I went to various mountains to seek out masters.
Q: Why, when you were so young, did you have the desire to practice martial arts in such an intense manner?
A: “Because when I was young, my dream was to become a respectable gongfu master. I saw teachers who could fight 5 or 6 people at once, some who could fight off more than 10, and I admired them greatly. At that time, life was very messy. We were kids, naughty, causing trouble. If I had great gongfu, other people would not be able to beat me up, or bully me! If you practice gong, then your thoughts also rise. You are taught martial virtue (wude). You cannot bully other people with your mighty power. If you have gongfu, then you are not afraid to stand up for other people. If you don’t have gongfu, it would be very dangerous for you to intervene.
At the age of 14, Li Shifu began to practice meditation. These methods, combined with the effects of long and bitter hours of martial training led him to experience something which set him to exploring a number of different religions. As he describes it, once during meditation, he accidentally opened a gate to different dimensions. He was shocked and he came to question all his old cosmological views. After exploring a number of religions, Li Shifu decided that Daoism offered the most systematic approach to finding truth, and that it held a complete ladder to return to the source of the universe (dao). Later, Li Shifu began researching The Secret Of Golden Flower, which lays the foundation for practising Lü Dongbin’s system of internal alchemy. By this point, Li Shifu was embarking wholeheartedly on the study of Daoist arts such as internal alchemy, Daoist medicine, and Yijing divination .
Li Shifu renounced society (chujia) three times. After the first two times, he returned home because there were some family responsibilities that had not yet been fulfilled. After he renounced for the third and final time, he went to the Wudang Mountains, where he has remained ever since.
Renunciation (chujia) — in Chinese literally, ‘to leave the family’. There are two main schools of Daoism — Orthodox Unity (Zhengyi) and Complete Reality (Quanzhen). Orthodox Unity allow Daoists to remain in society, whilst Completely Reality Daoists must cut off their life in society in order to devote themselves to spiritual practice and internal alchemy.
Q: Why did you decide to renounce?
A: “People renounce to become a daoist for different reasons. Some have life problems, health problems, or economic problems. But I did not have these; my experience is different from other people. Through practicing gong, through sitting meditation, I began having experiences. I did things which there is no way to explain with known scientific theory. Sometimes my body was no longer affected by gravity. Sometimes my astral body was separated from my body. Matter no longer behaved the way it should. These experiences changed my perspective on the world, and on what it means to be a human being, and led me to study things that very few teach.”
Q: Before you became a Daoist, did you ever have doubts thinking maybe you could not successfully become an immortal?
A: “No! I thought everything would all be over in 5 years [attain immortality/ transcendence]. However, I have been here 25 years now. When I left home I thought it would be very easy to let everything go. Actually, it is extremely difficult. You need to study a lot and have many teachers. Once you have education and understanding, wisdom slowly opens. It’s not easy. This is the path to ascend to heaven. It is the most difficult path. There are three stages in the path that leads to immortality/transcendence (xian). The first is to study to become a good person, the principles, theories, methods, understanding the principles of life, and learning the technical theories of internal alchemy. The second is to practice, train, and temper one’s innate-nature (xing). The first and second stage must be performed in society rather than living on a mountain since only social life has the necessary elements to train your innate-nature. The third stage is to enter into examination, to transform life and sublimate oneself. I am still in the second stage, there are still many requirements that I have to perfect.
In Daoism, there are two primary branches of the path that is said to lead to immortality/ transcendence. External alchemy (waidan) is the production of an elixir by firing multiple substances in a crucible, often combined with complex rituals. This elixir is said to cause various energetic, chemical, and spiritual substances to fuse within the body to form an entity that is able to survive the death of the physical body and ascend to higher realms. In some cases, it is suggested that this elixir leads to immortality of the physical body. Internal alchemy (neidan) is what Li Shifu is referring to in this context. Later to develop, far more common, a synthesis of a number of different Daoist traditions, and incorperating Buddhist and Confucian influences. Essentially, its aim is much the same as external alchemy, though it seeks to produce the pill internally through systems of meditation. These techniques are said to be relatively simple, yet can only be completed successfully when one’s innate-nature (xing) has been cultivated to a high level. There is a famous text by Liu Yiming called the 49 Barriers that sets out the various things that must be abandoned in order to complete the path of internal alchemy.
Q: Do you regret anything about the choices you made?
A: “No. All is in the past. This world is an illusion, but why we are here in this illusionary world? Not everyone has the chance to be a Daoist or climb the ladder to higher dimensions, but all of us are here to purse consistent learning, practice, and sublimation. Under the guidance of my masters, I had a rare opportunity to practice internal alchemy and the Daoist arts.”
In 1995, Li Shifu left home for the last time and went to a large temple of Wudang Mountain called Purple Cloud Temple. Li Shifu found that there were too many people there, and too much commotion for proper cultivation. He needed a quiet and peaceful place. One morning he had packed his bag and was on his way out of the gates of Purple Cloud Temple toward where, he did not yet know. With one foot stepped over the door rise and one foot still inside, a messenger came breathlessly running up the steps toward him. “is your surname Du?”. Li Shifu was shocked and replied “my surname is Du. Who are you and how do you know that?” The messenger explained that an old female Daoist at White Horse Mountain asked him to find a man who’s surname is Du at Purple Cloud Temple, and that he must hurry otherwise he would not find him. The old female Daoist, Tao Shifu, was already 80 at this time. Li Shifu stayed with her until 2000, learning from her scriptures, herbs, internal alchemy, the cultivation of life-path and innate-nature, as well as the making of merits and the dispelling desires. (I am indebted to Lindsey Wei’s The Valley Spirit for some of the details in this paragraph.)
Q: How was the first time you met Tao Shifu?
A: “It was the first time I went to White Horse Mountain. I went on my own and unknowingly attempted to ascend it from the wrong side. I got off the bus a few dozen kilometers from White Horse Mountain. I came up from the valley, I could not find a path, and there was nobody around. I just kept moving forward through the bushes. I was carrying a bag filled mostly with alchemical scriptures. It was quite heavy. I was lost and unsure what to do, I heard the sound of a cow. Then, I followed the sound of a cow and met a young cowherd. I didn’t know if it was real or not because sometimes in the mountains you see illusions. He showed me the way, but after he left, I got lost again after I continue to walk for a while. I thought to myself, ‘how come there is no more path!’ It was after 5 pm and I was in the middle of the mountain. I took a break and thought about what to do. I was feeling very down, and prepared to pass the night where I was. Suddenly, two birds turned up over my head and started making a racket. I was annoyed that I could not find the way and thought if you birds can understand me, please guide me to the the temple! The birds made a sound, flew 20 metres, and then waited for me. When I came to them, they flew another 20 metres. This repeated, and that was how I finished going up the mountain. By the time I got to the top it was about 7pm. I did not have a flashlight, so I was crawling along in the dark. Finally I started calling, ‘anybody there?!’ Finally I heard the sound of a dog. I was very happy and followed its sound to the temple. Two disciples came to meet me. It was nearly 9 pm by this time. When I got to the front gate I thought, ‘rescued’! Tao Shifu was warming herself by the fire and, laughing, said , “Ah, you’ve come back!” I bowed to her, and told her about my story of coming up. I asked “how did you know I was at Purple Could Temple? She just smiled and said nothing. She tested me for 6 months before accepting me as a disciple.”
Q: How did she test you?
A: “She watched my everyday life, my habits, my language, my thoughts, my character etc. Every day we lived together, she gave me jobs and saw how well I did them. Sometimes, regardless of how well I did them, she would rebuke me. At that time, I did not understand that she was examining my temperament, endurance and patience. After accepting me, we spent the days cultivating land, splitting wood, carrying grain and studying. I had given up training gongfu as I had moved on to internal alchemy found within the Daoist gate, which includes secret alchemical techniques that do not allow the presence of a third person or writing down in the form of characters. If you want to elevate yourself, then there must come a time when you let everything go.”
Li Shifu is not willing to talk about Tao Shifu too much. He says it makes him sad. Her path of self-cultivation was extremely bitter. He also very much misses her as his guiding master. The end of her life in the human world was at White Horse Mountain, and Li Shifu claims he, as well as others, witnessed her attaining immortality /transcendence (xian). He says that when Tao Shifu was soon to ascend, she sent for him, told him that her time was not much more, that the things she had to teach him had been taught, and that from then on he should cultivate on his own. She had been sitting for days without eating or drinking in meditation before ascending. He saw her twice on the day she ascended, and when she left, her light body looked like 19 years old. Laughing he says,“she skipped away like a young girl with pigtails and a basket full of flowers”. Apparently many people saw a colourful light in the sky as she ascended. (I am indebted to Lindsey Wei’s The Valley Spirit for some of the details in this paragraph.)
“You know, all people who cultivate, cultivate in bitterness. For instance, nobody can cultivate in an 8 star hotel. The better one’s living conditions, the harder it is to cultivate. It is easier for desire to open in these circumstances. Our wills are weak, and fancy living standards make both our will and body weaker. The requirements of longevity are far away from what Daoists should do in order perform internal alchemy! The point of cultivation is to return the mind to ‘zero’. You have to stop all your desires and habits, your previous likes and dislikes all have to stop. They all influence the opening and development of wisdom, and your reckoning can easily mislead you.”
Liu Lihang was another of Li Shifu’s principal teachers. Li Shifu spent three years studying with Liu Lihang until his death in 2002, at the age of 100. Liu Lihang was the last transmitter of the Pure Yang sect of Daoism, which Li Shifu says was founded by the author of the Secret of the Golden Flower.
“He was someone with a very wide and full knowledge: Daoist Medicine, Pure Yang alchemy, and also the unification of martial arts and Dao. In society he had many students, but they would only study certain outer aspects. In the unification of Dao and martial arts, martial arts are combined with hand symbols, incantations, and talismans. All of this is transmitted within the Daoist gate by high priests. They are not things that common people can study. There is a saying: ‘the Dao may not be transmitted in disorder’. I didn’t study with him very long, but by that time, Liu Lihang knew very well what he had to transmit - the unification of martial arts and the internal arts . He also introduced me to another Daoist master that I studied with — Huang Zongsheng, who focused on Daoist medicine.”
Li Shifu has, on a number of occasions gone into caves and sought to complete the path of internal alchemy. On two of these occasions, Li Shifu says he almost died. He says the high teachers from other realms pushed him back down because he had not yet completed his earthy duties.
“If there is no painstaking contribution and greater compassion then you cannot cut the rope of your own karma. Many people’s consciousness cannot return to zero because they do not have enough ascetic practices and compassion, which means insufficient positive energy to help your self-cultivation. Otherwise, you just sit there and anyone or anything can bring you out of it - disturb you. Any outside energy field. If you have accumulated bitterness and merit then you receive a lot of help. You need this to support you. This is called the 3000 merits and 800 great merits. You have to accomplish 3000 good deeds and 800 great deeds. And only then can you begin the true path of internal alchemy. This means you must serve society. You must be a compassionate, virtuous person.”
Q: Were you disappointed when you could not ascend?
A: “This is the path to higher dimensions, it is truly difficult. Our parents give us our bodies, our teachers give us the methods. Even though I have put down many desires, as long as you are still eating and breathing there is a problem. I am still an ordinary person.”
Epilogue: Excerpt from The Valley Spirit, by Lindsey Wei
When Zhen Wu was in the caves of Wudang, he reached a point in his cultivation where his thoughts had run wild. Frustration grew strong inside of him; it had been 20 years of isolation and practice, and he saw himself as having gotten nowhere. He picked up his sack of belongings and began to walk down the mountain. He had resolved to return to his home and life in society, he was giving up.
It was a few days’ walk out of the mountains and along the way he came upon a little old woman, hunched over a stone. He ventured closer to her and saw that she was grinding something. It was a large piece of metal upon a stone slaw, which she ground with a stone roller, rolling back and forth over the top of it with a slow and steady rhythm.
Zhen Wu knelt over and lightly touched the woman on the shoulder to get her attention. She stopped her work and turned around.
“What are you doing, grandmother?”
She had a wrinkled face and but a few teeth which showed through her smile. She chuckled and looked into him with her aged and cloudy eyes.
“I am grinding this metal into a needle.”
Zhen Wu looked at the large bar of metal, “But that will take forever!”
“Yes it will...” and she turned back to her grinding.
Zhen Wu slowly backed away, and suddenly realised that he had much further to go before his mind could be as slender and sharp as a needle ground by stone; much further to go before he could grind away the baggage on his back to fit through the narrow gates of Heaven.
He returned to his cultivation.
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Pax,
Oscar
I like this interview a lot. I wonder if he is still there in order to visit him. Did he teach you some practice or show you some skill?
Ps. On mobile I noticed that the comments do not work, seems to be a bug of the mobile version, so I am doing it on desktop.
Thank you for a sip of wisdom in a virtual world overloaded with information. True joy is a journey.